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East Frankish

Page history last edited by PBworks 13 years, 4 months ago

East Frankish (III/52)


Proposer: Stuart Whigham; edited by Duncan Head


Synopsis: Allow Magyar allies




Add the following lines:


Only in 892- 894 AD:

Magyar allies: List – Magyar (Book III)




Shortly before their movement into Hungary, the Magyars were used as

auxiliaries by the East Frankish kings. For example:


"It is false to assume that the Magyar troops were an irresistible light cavalry which bewildered and confounded the Carolingian commanders who faced them. Arnulf, for example, was no doubt well aware of their capabilities, for prior to their advance into the marches he had frequently used them as auxiliaries"


From Charles R Bowlus, "Warfare and Society in the Carolingian Ostmark" (Austrian History Yearbook v.14, 1978) reproduced at http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/ARTICLES/bowlus.htm -


"In 892, a Hungarian army, at the invitation of the Frankish emperor, Arnulf (king of the Eastern Franks 887-889, emperor 896-899) crossed the Carpathian Mountains and helped Arnulf to defeat his rebellious vassal, Sviatopluk."

- http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/thou/thou02.htm


"From 892 to 894, they raided Moravia (in what is today the central part of Czechoslovakia) and Pannonia, gaining valuable knowledge about the fortified passes in the Carpathian Mountains, the natural defenses of their future homeland. In 894-95 three Magyar forces were operating in the Danube Basin--one allied with Byzantium against the Bulgars in the south, one allied with the Franks against the Moravia in Pannonia, and a third that was invading what is now the TransCarpathian oblast in the Soviet Ukraine."

- http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/hungary/hungary188.html - obviously written when there was a "Soviet Ukraine"!


Arnulf and the Frankish army do seem to have been on campaign together with their Magyar allies:


"In 894 or 895, Great Moravia probably lost a part of its territory — present-day Western Hungary — to him. Arnulf, however, failed to conquer the whole of Great Moravia when he attempted it in 892, 893, and 899."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnulf_of_Carinthia


Pending further elucidation of the primary sources we can't be sure that the Franks and their Magyar allies met on the same battlefield, rather than campaigning separately against the same foe. However ince they seem to have been in the field at the same time, as allies fighting the same enemy, in a relatively restricted geographical area, they should be given the benefit of the doubt unless and until we find out more.


(The Magyars were again acting as allies of Arnulf when they invaded Italy in 899, but in this case their army was definitely in the field on its own.)



Stuart suggested that the list should allow _either_ Magyar allies or 0-8 Magyar LH(F) elements in the main list. This was chiefly because the sources didn't tell us how large the Magyar contingents were. However most of those who took part in the discussion thought that such secondary sources as we had been able to collect suggested an allied Magyar "army", rather than small groups of mercenaries, were involved.

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