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Norse Viking and Leidang

Page history last edited by PBworks 13 years ago

Norse Viking and Leidang (III/40)


1. Waterways in Sweden

2. Dublin Viking options

3. Date format


2. Dublin Vikings


Synopsis: Improve the presentation of Dublin Vikings


Author: Mick Hession





Replace "Viking - Ag 4"

with "Dublin after 944 - Ag 0. Other Viking - Ag 4"


All Vikings currently get Aggression 4, but after 944AD all Dublin Viking battles were within Dublin territory. Where they campaign further afield it is as allies or subjects of Irish kings. Norse Irish have aggression 1, so if the Dubliners are to be the defenders their aggression should probably be 0.



Add: Dublin Viking: WW or Wd, M, BUA, Rv, H(G), H(S), M.


Using the terrain from the Norse Irish list (III/46) would make more sense than having Dublin Vikings defend Scandinavia.


The immediate hinterland of Dublin was wooded: according to The Song of Dermot and the Earl Rory O'Connor tried to block Dermot McMurrough's attack on the city in 1170AD with an entrenched position at Clondalkin, about 12 miles away, that included plashed woods.


The compulsory marshes in the Norse Irish list reflect Giraldus' comments in the Topographia Hiberniae regarding the general swampiness of Ireland due to the great expanses of bog, especially in the midlands. However, the Liffey flood plain was notoriously marshy (I work in a 1970s office block about 100 metres from the riverbank; when its foundations were poured the construction workers had to wear lifejackets as the water table was so high).


Other Norse Irish options are WW (check: Dublin is a seaport. WW should probably be compulsory, but as the attested woods were some distance inland I'd suggest either a WW or Wd to avoid over-cluttering the terrain), Rv (the Liffey), BUA (the city), RGo (there must have been some slightly less damp land qualifying as boggy rather than marshy), H(G) and H(S)- the Dublin Mountains are within 10 miles of the Liffey.


Dates and allies


Only Dublin Vikings from 850AD to 1094AD

Irish - Irr Ax (O) @ 3AP 0-10

Irish allies - List: Norse Irish (Bk 3)



Only Dublin Vikings from 842AD to 1053AD

Irish - Irr Ax (O) @ 3AP 0-10

Only Dublin Vikings from 842AD to 944AD

Irish allies - List: Norse Irish (Bk 3)


Add to notes:

"The Dublin Norse are covered until 1053, the last occasion when they fielded an independent army. Thereafter Dubliner contingents in Irish armies are treated as Ostmen. The allied army at Clontarf in 1014 is treated as having an Irish C-in-c."


Dublin was founded when the Norse wintered there from 841AD/842AD, so the start date should be brought back. 842AD is also the first year in which Irish annals record Irish forces co-operating with the Norse.


The current end date of 1094AD is the date at which Gofraid, the Norse king of Dublin, was exiled and replaced by an O'Brien prince from Munster. After that date Dublin does not appear to have raised any field armies from Dublin until Asculf McTorkil's attempt to retake the city from the Anglo-Normans in 1171AD.


But after its sack at the hands of the Irish king of Meath in 944AD Dublin rarely fielded armies of its own, generally fighting as allies of various Irish kings. The only references I can find to independent Dublin armies after that date are in 978AD (with Norse allies from the Isles) against Meath, 1012AD against Brian Boru of Munster and 1053AD against one of Brian's successors, but by then they had recognised the king of Leinster as their own over-king.


As the Vikings now fought as Irish allies rather than the other way around, Irish allies should be restricted to the period 842AD-944AD.


Dublin Viking forces were fielded as allies of Irish kings in the

following years:

- 946AD and 950AD as allies of Brega against Meath

- 956AD as allies of Meath against Brega

- 968AD and 970AD as allies of Meath against the Northern Ui Neill

- 999AD, 1000AD, 1005AD and 1006AD as subjects of Brian Boru

- 1014AD as allies of Leinster against Brian Boru

- 1050AD, with Uladh, as allies of Leinster against Meath


From 1052AD-1072AD Dermot McMael na mBo was recognised as king of Dublin. On his defeat and death at the battle of Odba the Dubliners recognised Turlough O'Brien of Munster as over-king. In 1075AD the Norse king Gofraid was exiled and replaced with one of Turlough's sons. Gofraid obviously returned at some point as he was once again deposed in 1094AD, the current list end date.


Given that the last occasion on which the Dublin Norse fought alone was in 1053AD I'd suggest that's a better end date for this sub-list. After that date Dublin forces would be better treated as Ostmen allies within the Norse Irish list. The Leinster-Viking army at Clontarf in 1014 should best be treated as an Irish army in the Norse Irish list (III/46), with the Dubliners as an Ostman ally and Sigurd of Orkney as a Viking ally, probably including Brodir of Man's troops as Fast Blade "raiders" within the Orkney contingent.


(Reasoning for the Dubliners being an Ostman rather than a Viking ally is discussed in a proposal on the Norse Irish list (III/46).)


3. Date format


Proposer: Rob Brennan



Only Viking after 850AD:



Only Viking from 850AD:


The present wording, "before 850" and "after 850", does not cover the year 850 AD itself.

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